EHS EST World History/World Literature

Monday, January 23, 2006

Read the excerpt from "The PRince" by Niccolo Machiavelli found in your text (pg. R50, in the back).
Respond to the following prompt yourself. You must also read and respond to the comment of at least one of your peers.

3. Are Machiavelli's thoughts on ruler still relevent today? Why or why not?

posted by Tanya Judd Pucella at 2:07 PM

54 Comments:

  • Yes, Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers are still relevent today because no matter what time period it is, a person who is feared will always be obeyed. But that does not mean that is the only way to rule. As we can see today, leaders are trying a number of different tactics to maintain control, and some are successfull and some are not, for reasons such as who they are trying to lead and what location they are in. -Emma Robbinson

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:19 PM  

  • Machiavelli’s thoughts on rulers are not relevant today because they are not applied or viewed as important as they were in the Renaissance. During Machiavelli’s time, there was a humanist movement that drove many to question the reason behind things; among these the root of leadership, what made a leader successful and why people followed their example. Today, we have history on our side, we know what makes leaders successful and the diversity of views throughout the world allows us to choose what we wish follow. Though human nature does encompass trial and error, we are less likely to commit the same mistakes as those who came before us did because we see the consequences their mistakes had. Therefore, a ruler today is less likely to be overtly cruel to make mistakes and those he makes will serve as non-examples for generations to come.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:05 PM  

  • the above response was mine - Natalia

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:06 PM  

  • Emma - I disagree on the relevance of Machiavelli's views regarding today's society. Just because a person is feared does not mean they will be obeyed; yes, perhaps this will be true for a period of time, but after that someone is bound to stand up for what they truly believe in. Also, in today's world, it is more important for people to feel as though their leaders understand them and their needs rather than there being a definite line of distinction between rulers and the rest - Natalia C.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:19 PM  

  • I think it would be difficult for the leadership style of Machiavelli to be successful today. People know much more about their leaders today than they did in 1513. We are a democracy and a nation governed by laws, not armies. The press keeps the people informed about public officials.
    -Caroline Maddox

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:43 PM  

  • Yes, Machiavelli's thoiughts on rulers are still relevant today. People do not really change and people will almost always follow instructions from someone they fear. We may have come a long way from Machiavelli's time but we still act primative sometimes. Sometimes only fear can reach someone and that would work. However, that is not the only way to rule. One can be a successful ruler by many other priciples and morals. For instance. Martin Luther King Jr. was a successful leader and it was mostly because he was respected, not feared.
    -Arthur J

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:09 PM  

  • Although i disagreed on the relevance of Machiavelli's views in todays society, as did Natalia, after reading Arthurs input, i can see where he is coming from in his first couple thoughts. I think it is true that people will feel pressured to give respect and obedience to their leader in whom they fear.
    -Caroline Maddox

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:50 PM  

  • I both agree and disagree with Emma. A leader has a higher chance of their followers doing what they tell them to if the followers are afraid of him. On the other hand, if a person feels pressured and is tired of being scared of their leader, they will rebel. It pretty much all depends on how they treat the people, too. If a leader treats a person nicely, they will probably do what they say out of respect, not fear.
    -Arthur J

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:59 PM  

  • I do not think that Machiavelli's thoughts are relevent in today's society because that type of government would not last. Initially, the leader would assert his power by any and all justifiable means, which would lead the people to follow his law carefully to avoid his cruelty. However, once the people hear of how other governments in today's society work, I think that they will question their own. A government that oppreses its people, even with reason, will seem unfair when next to a more leniant or friendly one.
    -Parker K.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:17 PM  

  • I agree with Natalia's statement. The idea's of Machiavelli were better applied in his time when the humanist movement began to question many governments. She is right in saying that current governments have learned from the past mistakes of others, examined the consequences, and are now less likely to make them again.
    -Parker K.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:23 PM  

  • Machiavelli's thoughts of a ruler are relevent to a certain degree, at all levels of society, not just the governing level. I see it as a way of having your head in the game, but still having a steady standing on your beliefs. Its like being all ears, while sitting back and watching what its happening. -Aly E.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:19 PM  

  • I agree with Arthur on the fact that people will follow someone that they fear. Its relevent all over, an example is an elementary school bully. The kid thats being bullied on always follows the bully because he is scared of being hurt. And i also agree that people don't change but we have somewhat evolved from Machiavelli's time period, but still show some of those characteristics. - Aly E.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:22 PM  

  • I believe that Machiavelli wrote his views so that they would be relevent to any ruler in any time period. However, in today's world, Machiavellian rulers are rarely tolerated. If one country sees that a ruler is treating his citizens badly, it feels that it must help those suffering citizens. So, while the ruling by fear would still work today, it is no longer applicable in government. It is however applicable in school. Students are more likely to behave in a class in which they fear the teacher than one in which the teacher is lenient.

    -Danielle Simmons

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:26 PM  

  • I can understand where Natalia and Caroline are coming from. In today's world it is hard to see how this system of thought could still be relevent. However, this is an idealized view. Our country has benefited from democracy and freedoms that aren't known in most of the world. While Machavelli's thoughts are not relevent to the United States, they are very relevent to other countries which have not benefited from our successes.

    -Danielle Simmons

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:31 PM  

  • Machiavelli's thoughts on a ruler are not relevant today because ways of ruling have changed dramatically since the Renaisssance. Many great leaders owe their success to their popularity among the people that they rule. Many nations such as America are run on democracy, and a leader such as the President would not be elected if he was so inhumanely cruel. Even if a country is not governed by a democratic system, people have become less fearful, learned to think for themselves and speak out against cruel rulers.
    -Elena P.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:38 PM  

  • I agree with Natalia in that in current times we are able to look back on history and see what did and did not work for leaders in the past. This gives us a strong advantage for our own governing system and allows us to see how rulers who were cruel, feared and who abided by the words of Machiabelli, usually were not as successful. If they did succeed at first, they're past deeds came back to haunt them in the end, and they most likely fell from power.
    - Elena P.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:42 PM  

  • No, I do not believe that Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers are still relevant today, because I don't think that they should ever have been relevant. It isn't better to kill family members than seize land; how could it be? I'm sure that people in Machiavelli's time were not naive enough to value their land more than their fellow country men.
    -Rachel W.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:44 PM  

  • I disagree with Emma in her thought that Mahiavelli's thoughts are still relevant today. I don't believe that they ever could have been in any time period, relevant. I think that he believed this, and made others to go along with him, but it was never a good idea to begin with. I do not think that any ruler should or should have followed this idea, for it is just as important to be loved as it is to be feared.
    -Rachel W.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:47 PM  

  • I agree with Arthur in both statements that he made. He talked about how even though we have come far from Machiavelli's time, we sometimes still act very primitive. I also liked how he used the example of Martin Luther King Jr. and thought of the other side of the issue by talking about eventual rebellion from people who are tired of being pushed around constantly. -Emma Robbinson

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:25 PM  

  • No, I do not believe that Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers are still relevent today. His thoughts state that it is better to be feared than loved. Ina democratic society, if you are not loved by the people, you cannot become a leader of the nation. Another reason why Machiavelli's clinched-fist type of ruling would not work is because it is now much easier for a group of people to rise up against the actions of their rulers. With the instantaious communications which we have today, a group of conspirators could be called together in a matter of minutes. --George Montgomery

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:56 PM  

  • I agree with Caroline M on the subject of the press's influence on the people today. If a leader steps slightly out of line today, he is hounded constantly, where as in Machiavelli's day, leaders could get away with a lot more things. --George Montgomery

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:59 PM  

  • In many parts of the world, yes absolutely; in the United States, absolutely not. Machiavelli wouldn’t stand a chance as a presidential candidate, for if he attempted to use his techniques on the American people, he would get thrown out. In America, it is better to be loved and respected than to be feared and eliminated. The “ends justify the means” philosophy wouldn’t work with this society because as soon as the people are scared, they start flipping out. People here want a ruler who will keep order in their society, yet at the same time give them what they want; this mainly being freedom, security, education, jobs, and, yes, lower taxes. Other parts of the world are still accustomed to following a supreme-like ruler and not really asking questions about it until they loose their sense of security or feel threatened by their leader. Although we are not used to be ruled in fear, thus do not tolerate it, many other countries that are run by governments like communism, are. – Damien D

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:22 PM  

  • No, i do not think that Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers are any relevant today because people won't nesissarily follow someone who they feared anymore, but more of someone who they admire and respect. Machiavelli wanted his followers to fear him, he never wanted to reveal his kindess because he believed that it would sabotage his army and his power over them. Today, we are wiser through learned mistakes in our history and we know better than to base our instincts on those beliefs. A great leader is one who considers everyone, never just one self. They are able to lead in a civilized, fair, and appropriate manner. It is always better to have power because of respect than it is because of fear.
    -Thao ho

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:23 PM  

  • i both agree and disagree with danielle on this matter. While Machiavelli's ruling by fear are still valid, it is rarely tolerated. Through trial and error from our past history, we should know better that this strategy would not work in modern day's time. People are given more rights now and rulers can be overcomed if they took the wrong actions. I disagree with her example of the relationship between the students and teachers. I believe that a student should not fear their teacher, they both must have a mutual trust between the two or the class wouldn't be too satisfying.
    -Thao ho

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:30 PM  

  • I agree with you Elena in your belief that Machiavelli's techniques would not be accepted in today's society; that people now think for themselves and are much less fearful than they were back in his time period. Yet, i disagree with your thought that everyone in the world would react this way, some countries in the world are still run by similar systems like communism in countries like Vietnam, where the people are more accustomed to a strict, powerful, and feared ruler. - Damien D

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:34 PM  

  • Machiavelli's principles are still relevant today, but to a lesser degree than they were in the rennaissance and middle ages. Today there are global rules governing rulers that restrict the measures they can take to control their people, but the basic "better feared than loved" still applies in many ways.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:44 AM  

  • -Corey Luttrell

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:45 AM  

  • No, I do not think that Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers is still present today. Since our government is based upon checks and balances no one fears the ruler of our land. But, in Cuba i believe that Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers is still applied since most of the people in Cuba fear to uprise against Fidel Castro. Also, Fidel Castro takes steps to make sure that his population fears him due to his strict policies.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:32 AM  

  • No, I do not think that Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers is still present today. Since our government is based upon checks and balances no one fears the ruler of our land. But, in Cuba i believe that Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers is still applied since most of the people in Cuba fear to uprise against Fidel Castro. Also, Fidel Castro takes steps to make sure that his population fears him due to his strict policies.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:32 AM  

  • No, I do not think that Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers is still present today. Since our government is based upon checks and balances no one fears the ruler of our land. But, in Cuba i believe that Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers is still applied since most of the people in Cuba fear to uprise against Fidel Castro. Also, Fidel Castro takes steps to make sure that his population fears him due to his strict policies.
    JOSIAS C.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:33 AM  

  • I agree with Emma but Maciavelli's thoughts on rulers are applied in different socities. In America, we do not have Machiavellis thoughts on rulers but in Cuba the ruler uses Machiavelli's thoughts since everyone fears Fidel Castro. Josias C.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:38 AM  

  • Yes, Machiavelli's thoughts of leadership are still demonstrated today. Many leaders cause conflicts to gain power or admirations. In contrast mostly all leaders are following a democratic way of ruling. In countries less developed Machiavelli's thoughts are often followed by leaders.
    Eguzki Osteikoetxea

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:35 PM  

  • I agree with Josias's example of leaders that follow Machiavelli's ideas, as I said previously countries less developed tend to follow Machiavelli's thoughts. This can be seen in countries located in South America and in Africa.
    Eguzki Osteikoetxea

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:43 PM  

  • Machiavelli’s thoughts on rulers are mostly irrelevant to today’s society. Societies who have a government similar to a Machiavellian one are even looked down upon because we have learned the negative results of one. However there are a some existing exceptions who follow a rule very similar to a Machiavellian one. Most dictatorships existing throughout the world have this mindset. Also, Kim Jong-il of North Korea rules much like that of a Machiavellian. He has been known to torture, hold public executions, encourage slave labor, and has been said to use infanticides in prison camps. With his huge armies people are afraid to rise up against him. --Alicia Rinaldi

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:03 PM  

  • Thao makes a good point, and is completely right concerning places like the United States that has learned that a Machiavellian society is not a good thing. The “it is better to be feared rather than loved” philosophy has been proven to cause a government to be unstable and vulnerable to rebellion. But not everyone has become wise yet and realized that this type of rule is not good because there are still some leaders that reflect the Machiavellian ruling. Places like North Korea, Africa, and in underdeveloped societies, like Eguzki stated, have leaders that are still following a rule similar to a Machiavellian one. –Alicia Rinaldi

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:09 PM  

  • I think that Machiavellis thoughts are only slightly relevent today. I'm sure he had intentions of his rules and ideas to be used in future governments, but today a leader with his qualities would not be tolerated. We have learned a lot since his time in 1513 and know what qualities make a good leader. In today's governments, a leader who is feared more then loved could never become a leader in the first place.
    -Chelsea Smith

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:25 PM  

  • I agree with Caroline and George about press interference today. It is true that if a leader like Machiavelli were to carry out many of the things he did today, the news would tear him to pieces. He would not have gotten away with many of the things that he did.
    - Chelsea Smith

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:28 PM  

  • No, Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers aren't relevant today. If they were, then what is the use for voting on presidency in the US? People don't vote because they fear that person of their choice. They make that decision because they know they'll be a good leader and provide excellent living for the people. Today a person stays in power because they are favored by the people and show them respect. Also, no leader would be chosen if he were cruel to others and had negative intentions in mind for ruling.

    [Rosyl I.]

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:32 PM  

  • I agree with Danielle's statement. It is true how today countries try to help one another if the people aren't being treated right. An example would be the United States helping the Palestenians have a more structured governemnt (yet they refuse). I also agree with her statement on the power in classrooms: students are more likely to do the work when they fear the teacher. If not, they most likely don't pay attention/do work in class because the teacher doesn't use any force.

    [Rosyl I.]

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:37 PM  

  • Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers are no longer relevant because in his time they did not have democratic governments. The governments of that time were oligarchys or monarchys. The difference between these types of leadership are great. In a democratic government the nation is ruled by a leader who is ruled bu the people. But in a oligarchy or monarchy the leaders elect themselves and do not have to do what the people say. A president would not be able to run and win by threating or trying to scare the citizens. They win by speeches, and campaiging. Also America does not exactly let other people rule with iron fists. If they do, we attack them. So, Machiavell's thoughts no longer apply.
    -Matt Galatowitsch

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:09 PM  

  • I agree with Elenas statements in the respect that a President definately would not be elected by the means of brute force. If anything that would cause voters to vote AGAINST him because of the bullying and forcing his is trying to use. Putting fear into the people also causes panic and with panic there is chaos fighting which results in deaths so trying to instill fear in your people is no longer a strong quality in a leader.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:13 PM  

  • I agree with Elenas statements in the respect that a President definately would not be elected by the means of brute force. If anything that would cause voters to vote AGAINST him because of the bullying and forcing his is trying to use. Putting fear into the people also causes panic and with panic there is chaos fighting which results in deaths so trying to instill fear in your people is no longer a strong quality in a leader.
    -Matt Galatowitsch

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:14 PM  

  • Machiavelli’s statements on how leaders should be are for the most part no longer relevant. His views are influenced by the type of government and warfare they had when he wrote them. We don't have the same morals and technology as we did back then, and a lot of the things he describe don't even come up in warfare or in a leader’s lifetime any more. In our society our government has guidelines for what they can and can't do so the leaders today couldn't do these things even if they wanted to.
    -Alex, G

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:39 PM  

  • I disagree with Matt G's statement on Machiavelli's thoughts on a leader, he said that the governments today are democratic, but many governments are still communists or monarchies. Even in democratic societies people need to respect the leader or they wouldn't elect him. I agree with what he said about how a president can't scare people into liking him but some rulers in the world were feared by the people but also respected.
    -Alex, G

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:45 PM  

  • I believe that Machiavelli's thoughts are still relevant today. On a global level, dictators use Machiavelli's teachings to gain and keep power. It can even be applied to everyday life in America. Coaches of sports sometimes try to make themselves feared in order for to get their players to reach their potential, which is a concept that Machiavelli noted. Also military leaders may use Machiavelli's tactics in order to gain respect from soldiers. Though Machiavelli wrote The Prince in the Renaissance, his ideas are still relevent today.
    Neil B

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:57 PM  

  • Though I disagree with Parker that Marchiavelli's thoughts are irrelevent today, I do agree with his point that people would not enjoy being under a Machiavellian leader. He correctly notes that the people would eventually demand a fairer form of government, but it does not always apply in our world. For example the Chinese government has taken steps to isolate their people from the outside world in order to stop rebellion and so far it has been sucessful. Therefore I believe a Machiavellian leader that took absolute control over all areas could in fact thrive in todays world.
    Neil Bo

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:01 PM  

  • The thoughts that Machiavelli expresses about leadership are still relevant today. Despite the fact that a great deal of time has passed since his views were published, a leader who is feared still has a great deal of control. In today's society his views would be considered primative and uneducated because people are more concerned about justice and an equal society, however our evolved state of mind doesn't change the fact that people will cooperate with and respect someone they fear. Just because the United States doesn't support this concept doesn't mean other countries aren't still leading in his style. -Meghan M.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:43 PM  

  • I think Alicia makes a good point about the fact that some dictators still exist in our world and reign using principles that Machiavelli developed. These governments do exist, however are looked down upon by what we consider to be civilized nations, contributing to the lack of acceptance of Machiavelli's ideas in our modern world.
    -Meghan M.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:23 PM  

  • Machiavelli's thought are relevent to certain governments. Government's run by monarchies and dictators,are always in danger of getting overthwrown. These leaders ideally should be loved and feared for them to be obeyed and respected, although I believe they should be more loved than feared. Unfortunately many of these leaders take too much to the fear factor and greatly instill it within their people 's hearts. They also tend to take advantage of their power.
    Priya G

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:54 PM  

  • I agree with Emma's comment. It is easy to govern when you are feared. People have no other choice but to obey you for fear for their lives. This is definately not a proper way to rule. But I also believe in the long run leaders who are only feared, will not last. There will always be certain groups ( other countries, or people within their nation) who take it upon themselves to end merciless tyranny.
    Priya G

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:56 PM  

  • I do believe that Machiavelli's thoughts are still somewhat relevent to today's society, because a person who fears someone will give them power and obey them just so that they won't be placed on the person's "Hate List". But in other cases in today's society people that are loved also have power because they are respected for something good that they've accomplished. -Katie L.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:46 PM  

  • I have to say I agree with both Emma and Natalia on some of the things they said. Emma said that a person who is feared will always be obeyed, this is true since the person doesn't want to get hurt for doing soimething wrong but on the otherhand like Natalia said a person will eventually want to stand up for themselves and say what they believe. I also agree with Natalia on the fact that in today's society people do want to feel as though they aren't seperate from leader and followers, but really to feel as one group. -Katie L.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:53 PM  

  • I do not think that Machiavelli's thoughts on rulers are still relevent today. This is because Machiavelli was alive in a completely different time period. In that time period, people were used to having a ruler who could control everything they did, and there was a reason to fear a ruler because they could kill you for any reason. Now, I think people are much more rebellious and used to their freedoms to allow a Machiavellian ruler to completely control their lives through fear. In most societies, a ruler of this sort would be rooted out.
    -Brian C.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:55 PM  

  • Priya made an excellent point. Machiavelli's thoughs on rulers would probably be relevant to countries ruled by monarchies and dictators. The only reason that this may be is because these countries have a similar system goverment to those that existed in Machiavelli's time. It is in these countries that the use of fear can be fully utilized, because the ruler of these countries has absolute power.
    -Brian C.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:59 PM  

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