EHS EST World History/World Literature

Sunday, April 02, 2006

Many of the Symposium contributors believe that even as he lay dying, Karl saw the Jews as objects or subhuman, and that his wish to confess to a Jew, any Jew, and a concentration camp prisoner at that, showed that he had learned nothing from his experiences. Do you agree with this?

posted by Tanya Judd Pucella at 3:45 PM

35 Comments:

  • In a way I do agree with this statement because what Karl said in the book proved that he thought of Jews as a single group of people, and to confess to any one of them would be just as good as any other. There was no distinction in his mind between Jews as human beings and individual people like everyone else. But the fact that he even wanted to make peace with the Jewish people at all before his death shows that he was truly sorry and knew he had made a horrific mistake by participating in the murder of Jews, so that shows that he respects them enough to care about their opinion.
    -Emma Robbinson

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:08 PM  

  • When Karl was actually taking action, I think that he did not realize his own actions. Like when you say something before you actually think about what you are saying. Then when he was dying, he realized his responsibility for his actions. But I think that he should not just ask for forgiveness from any jew just for the sake of asking for forgiveness from one, but I think that he should get forgiveness from that person. Not just anyone who follows the same religion. It shows that he is sorry for his actions to a certain level and takes responsibility for it.

    -Aly Enslen

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:31 PM  

  • I agree with Emma, however, I still think that he was not truly sorry or he would have not chosen a Jew at random. Because if you want forgiveness from a friend, for example, you don't ask another friend, you go to that friend directly. So you get full forgiveness and no strings attached. He will never be fully forgived because of what he did. He chose to harm the Jews and aid their destruction, and that will forever be scarred in his memory. I dont think that he would ever forget what he did, it will always be lingering in his mind. And if you did something so bad that will always remind you of your bad choices, I think that you can never be fully forgiven, even if you are well aware of your actions and of the Jewish people's existence as a group of people and not a group of objects.

    -Aly Enslen

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:37 PM  

  • I both agree and disagree with this statement to an extent. Karl's evident repentance and wish to show this to a Jew shows that he views Jewish people as somewhat human at least because he considers it important to apologize for a wrong he has committed against them. At the same time, Karl's refusal to directly state that he was repentant for his actions shows that though he now did consider Jews to be at human's level, he does not consider them to be as important as people from other races that he may have hurt.

    - Natalia Cuenca

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:24 PM  

  • I agree with this statement because Karl only felt remorse while on his death bed. This plea for forgiveness seemed to be only because he was worried about what consequences his past actions and hate towards the Jews would cause for him after his own death. In a way, Karl is a step above other Nazis because he is making an attempt to make peace with the Jews. Although he made an effort, the effort was most likely made out of self serving reasons, which is why I agree with the statement.

    -Elena Peterson

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:30 PM  

  • I agree with what Emma said because it is important to realize that Karl did not show growth from his experience. He chose to beg forgiveness from any single Jew that had been affected by this awful experience. This shows that he never really cared for any of the people he hurt, because even after this entire time, no Jew was any different than the other to Karl.

    - Elena Peterson

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:38 PM  

  • No, I don't agree with this. A person who hadn't learned his lesson wouldn't be so serious. A person who hadn't learned his lesson wouldn't have begged a Jew for his repentance. If a person were in his shoes, they would most likely do the same thing. To be in so much physical pain and to be haunted with his past actions, that is torture. He is tortured in his mind and his body is also being tortured. He wanted to find any Jew because he wanted to be forgiven by the same kind of people that he had been killing. He asked for some one in a concentration camp because those were the Jews most affected because of him. To ask for someone from the family or that knew a Jew that he had killed would be too much work to find and he never would have been able to ask to be forgiven. To get his repentance out, he asked for a Jew and wanted that Jew to represent the entire Jewish people.
    Arthur J

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:00 PM  

  • *I accidentally posted my original response to the wrong question. This is my actual one.

    I do not agree with this statement completely because he had previously thought about what he and the rest of the Nazis were doing to the Jews, and how it might be wrong. However, it is apparent that Karl did not care about the Jews like he would one of his own friends. Karl, even to his death bed, did distinguish between Jews, but instead looked at them as a whole. This was apparent when he was justified that whatever Jew he confessed to, it would all be the same.

    - Elena Peterson

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:04 PM  

  • i definitely would have to agree with this statement more than disagree. Karl's actions,along with the other SS soldiers, were clearly evident. His behaviors as he treated the Jews were inhumane. Clearly, it shows how low he thinks of them. It's like, he viewed the jews as a whole and not individuals; a whole who were equvialent to less than the values of human beings. Since, he did try to set things right by wanting to confess his actions, he was a step closer to forgivness than the others. Though i think he really was just trying o self-benefit himself as his death drew close.

    -thao ho

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:08 PM  

  • I think arthur made a good point and i can understand where he is coming from. It made me look at Karls situation in a different point of view and though i still agree with the statement, i would have to change the fact that he did learn something from his experiences. Obviously because he is trying to make somewhat of an effot to redeem himself, but i dont think it was a huge enough lesson for him. Arthur said that "A person who hadn't learned his lesson wouldn't have begged a Jew for his repentance." But then again, a person really doesnt need to learn his lesson to set things straight for himself in the Jew's eyes, and he defnitely didnt beg, he simply just wants to confess his actions.

    -Thao ho

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:20 PM  

  • I disagree with this statement because I believe that having the views that Karl had, just to confess what he thought shows a true sign of sympathy. The fact that he admitted it to a seemingly random Jew simply means that was very eager to get his true thoughts out to the public. I think that Karl underwent many changes when he looked back at his life and realized how precious every life is. Everybodie's prorities change when they are faced with a change as substatial as death. Karl was sincere, it just took a life changing event to make him aware of his actions.
    -George Montgomery

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:22 PM  

  • I agree with a lot of what Natalia said. Karls willingness to repent (although not entirely) shows a true sign of humbleness and change. I also agree that the fact that Karl did not directly state that he was repentant shows that some of his old beliefs were still in tact. If you are truly sorry for an action, why would you not completely confess it? Overall though, I believe that Karl was a changed man and that it took laying in his death bed to make him realize his wrong-doings.
    -George Montgomery

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:27 PM  

  • I agree with the statement made here. Karl saw the Jews as inferior, to the point they he did not even think of them as human beings. Even seeing the torture and pain that the Jews were put to Karl still could not see that they were people too. He was so blind and arrogant to the ways that he had grown accustomed too he did not even try to change or attempt to find out if what he believed was wrong.

    -Rachel Wilson

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:51 PM  

  • I disagree with what George said. He did admit his wrong-doings to a Jew he did not know, but to me this seemed like it was more of an attempt for him to save himself. He did not truly think that what he did was wrong, and did not even try to see how incredibly wrong he was. He just wanted to save his own skin, and that is why he admiteed what he did to the Jew. Even in the face of death he was resistent to the error of his ways.

    -Rachel Wilson

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:54 PM  

  • I agree with Arthur. If Karl had not learned anything he would not have repented at all. His willingness to repent shows that he had begun to see Jews as humans. The only reason he wanted any Jew was because he was in so much pain and agony that he wanted to ask forgiveness before it was to late. He was on his death bed and simply wanted this one Jew to forgive him on behalf on the entire Jewish population. Christians forgive people for crimes they have commited against other people, why can't a Jew do the same thing?

    -Danielle Simmons

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:06 PM  

  • I agree with this in the sense that Karl, wishing full repentance, should have asked the people who actually suffered because of him. No random person can forgive him of something that he did not do to them. However, since the victims weren't alive, perhaps he felt that the only way to be forgiven was to ask someone who was closest to them- another Jew. Even though Wiesenthal never knew the dead family, the fact that he was a Jew connected him to them.
    -Chelsea Rohrer
    (Sorry for the lateness of my responses. I've been trying to fix my computer all day)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:17 PM  

  • I agree with George's comment. This was Karl's last chance to attempt to redeem himself for the wrongs he committed. He didn't have to confess and ask for forgiveness, but he chose to. Most Nazi soldiers would consider their mass killings of the Jews as honorable. But once Karl was was faced with death he realized what he did was very wrong and it haunted him. Confessing to a Jew, rather than just God or any other person shows that he was truly sympathetic.
    - Alicia Rinaldi

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:13 AM  

  • I partially agree and disagree with this statement. Although he considered them to all be the same and wished to confess to any of them, that does not mean that he had learned nothing from his experiences. He did realize that they were humans and although he would not treat them as he would other people, he felt the need to pay them respect and give them an apology.

    -Chelsea Smith

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:54 AM  

  • I agree with George. He said that it took a life changing experience to make Karl realize and regret the consequences of his actions. He realized how much he messed up and like George said, his wanting to confess to anyone shows he was somewhat desperate and eager to show he was sorry.
    -Chelsea Smith

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:59 AM  

  • I agree with George. He said that it took a life changing experience to make Karl realize and regret the consequences of his actions. He realized how much he messed up and like George said, his wanting to confess to anyone shows he was somewhat desperate and eager to show he was sorry.
    -Chelsea Smith

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:59 AM  

  • I agree with this statement because I think that the only reason he wanted to get forgiveness from a Jewish person was to clear his conscience before he died. I believe if he really learned from the experience than he would have asked for forgiveness before he was lying on his deathbed.
    -Alex Goetz

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:12 PM  

  • I disagree with George because Karl shouldn't need a life changing event like death make him confess, if he was really sincere he should have asked for forgiveness a long while back. i agree with what George said about finding the first Jewish person and confessing to them, because he wasn't in the state to find the people he harmed.
    -Alex Goetz

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:16 PM  

  • In some ways i agree with him because Karl was acting in a group you get that pack-mentality. Also Karl may have never had a personal experience with a jewish prisoner therefor never saw them as anything more than an object. But i also think his interaction with Simon made him see the Jews as humans like him. Som i think before he died he may have had some sort of ephiphany.

    _Maddie B.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:03 PM  

  • I agree with Elena, though he saw the jews as maybe lesser or a lower human, they were still human. He knew what he was did was wrong but like i said before, i think his expirence w/ Simon changed his perspective.

    Maddie B.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:05 PM  

  • I think that remorse in itself shows the desire to change one's own actions and that he reflected on what he had done with horror. While I cannot condone what Karl did, I do think that his desire to apologize demonstrates that he did learn from his experiences. To me, what detracts from the sincerity of his statements is the fact that he seems to treat all of the Jews as a whole and that it is unimportant to him who he speaks to. I think that in generalizing all of the Jews he directed his statements of regret more so toward himself than those he hurt. His story did nothing but bring more images of terror to his listener, while it allowed him to come to peace with himself. By generalizing an entire group of people and treating their individuality as insignificant, he seems to undermine the gravity of what he has done.
    -Meghan McMullen

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:27 PM  

  • I agree with what Thao said about how Karl not only treated Simon as a lesser person, but in disreagrding the individuality of the Jews he further degraded an entire religious group as being subhuman.
    -Meghan McMullen

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:31 PM  

  • I do not agree with this particular statement. If Karl had not learned anything from his experiences, and still thought that Jews were subhuman, then he would not be haunted by the memories of the massacre which he was a part of. He would think of himself a hero, and so would not even consider asking forgiveness, much less from a Jew.
    As for his confession going to a random Jew, this is simply a matter of circumstance. I believe that the memory of what he did was truly torturing him inside, and that he would have asked forgiveness directly from the people whom he had hurt. Of course, there is no matter of proving this one way or the other, so all we can do is assume. But I believe that he was truly sorry, especially in the way he spoke of the things he had done.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:01 PM  

  • Anonymous said...
    I do not agree with this particular statement. If Karl had not learned anything from his experiences, and still thought that Jews were subhuman, then he would not be haunted by the memories of the massacre which he was a part of. He would think of himself a hero, and so would not even consider asking forgiveness, much less from a Jew.
    As for his confession going to a random Jew, this is simply a matter of circumstance. I believe that the memory of what he did was truly torturing him inside, and that he would have asked forgiveness directly from the people whom he had hurt. Of course, there is no matter of proving this one way or the other, so all we can do is assume. But I believe that he was truly sorry, especially in the way he spoke of the things he had done.
    -Camilo Rojas (sorry for forgetting to write it before)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:03 PM  

  • I do not agree with the first statement above made by Thao. Although it is true that his actions in the past make it very hard to believe that he would care for Jews at all, you can see that although he participated in those crimes, he did not feel any joy or sense of victory while committing them. I also do not believe that his confession was only an attempt to save himself, because his fate was already sealed and he knew this, so why would he try to settle his conscience if he were about to die anyways?
    -Camilo Rojas

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:16 PM  

  • It is hard to agree of disagree with this without actually being there with Karl when he made his confession. Sometimes how they are acting and what they say can show how sincere they really are. Maybe when he confessed he was like the men who are sentenced to death and a church figure goes and spends time with them so that they can confess what they had done and be forgiven by God. Some of this criminals wanting to be in Gods presence own up to what they did and admit that it is wrong and that they should not have done it. On the other hand he might have just done it as the Symposium contributors believe and was merely something he said and did not mean. It is really tell whether or not a person is being sincere in what they say.
    -Matt Galatowitsch

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:22 PM  

  • I agree with Natalia that there are mixed sides to this arguement and that yes he did wish to tell a Jewish prisoner that they were sorry when he could have merely blown off the fact that he did all of the terrible things that he did. But his inability to actualy state that he was repentant does also show that he is not completely and wholly sorry.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:26 PM  

  • I agree with Natalia that there are mixed sides to this arguement and that yes he did wish to tell a Jewish prisoner that they were sorry when he could have merely blown off the fact that he did all of the terrible things that he did. But his inability to actualy state that he was repentant does also show that he is not completely and wholly sorry.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:26 PM  

  • I agree with Natalia that there are mixed sides to this arguement and that yes he did wish to tell a Jewish prisoner that they were sorry when he could have merely blown off the fact that he did all of the terrible things that he did. But his inability to actualy state that he was repentant does also show that he is not completely and wholly sorry.
    -Matt Galatowitsch (ahh pressed enter on the number pad on accident, twice)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:27 PM  

  • I would have to agree and disagree with this statement. Yes, I do think that perhaps Karl thought of the Jews as subhuman because he took part in mistreating them. I disagree on the thought that he didn't learn anything from his experiences. It is the hardest thing to confess your thoughts to another person. Karl wanted to confess to a Jew, or any other Jew for that matter. A confession to any Jew that was in the concentration camp is better than no confession at all. I think that lying on his death bed gave Karl, i guess you can say, a "wake-up" call because he realized the mistakes his actions were.

    -Rosyl I.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:21 PM  

  • I agree with majority of George's statements. Confession is an important thing...but to any random Jew it does seem meaningless and it's like he just wants anyone to hear what he's got to say.

    -Rosyl I.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:26 PM  

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